Reply
Fat-and-Happy TTC since Mar 2008; 1 child; Texas 13915 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Pillowpants is DoingUrMom:" :?"


I just said that there is life. I didn't say anything about the mother being obligated to carry it to term. Just stating a fact.

Jasify Due September 2; 2 kids; South Carolina 31243 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Then why is it in embryology textbooks? "Human development begins at fertilization, the process ... [snip!] ... that the fetus has life and abortion brings about fetal death... The value of the life is debatable, obviously, but it is life."


Human development begins. The process of personhood begins. A zygote is alive, yet so is a sperm. It does not qualify as a human with rights yet. "Life" is being used as regarding personhood, not what biologically speaking is "alive." A sperm and zygote are both the same "amount" of alive, so to speak.

user banned 1 child; , 52185 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting beeblebrox.:" "The right of the unborn to live supercedes any right of a woman to "control her own body." Margaret ... [snip!] ... how the f**k are the things I italicized not propaganda?! Those two samples alone are forcing the pro-choice ideal onto people."


Because bearing a child DOES alter the rights of the mother, and how can we have rights if we cannot have control over our own bodies?

user banned 1 child; , 52185 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Then why is it in embryology textbooks? "Human development begins at fertilization, the process ... [snip!] ... that the fetus has life and abortion brings about fetal death... The value of the life is debatable, obviously, but it is life."


That says development. Clearly it happens at fertilization as the cells begin to divide. Also, I believe that one of the criterion for life is that they are self sustaining. I could be wrong. Feel free to prove me otherwise and show me the criteria for life.

Pillowpants is a SLUT Everett, Washington 61453 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" I just said that there is life. I didn't say anything about the mother being obligated to carry it to term. Just stating a fact."


Sure, but there is a difference between Life and "life"



Bacteria is alive.

Fat-and-Happy TTC since Mar 2008; 1 child; Texas 13915 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Jasify:" Human development begins. The process of personhood begins. A zygote is alive, yet so is a sperm. It ... [snip!] ... personhood, not what biologically speaking is "alive." A sperm and zygote are both the same "amount" of alive, so to speak."


Not really. A sperm does not carry the genetic material for a complete person. The lifespan of a sperm is quite short because it cannot sustain itself much passed, what is it.... 72 hours... I really don't know lol. It will never be more than a sperm unless it finds an egg to fertilize. A sperm is incomplete. A zygote carries the genetic material for a complete, genetically distinct, person and has the... yes I'm going to say it, potential to grow long enough to sustain itself outside of the womb. But the reason people get an abortion is because a zygote grows into a baby... sperm does not. How awkward would that be?
Personhood, as they call it, is debatable.... life is not.
All I'm really trying to say is life is present, regardless of whether people think it should be terminated or not (which is up to the bearer of that life).

user banned 1 child; , 52185 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Then why is it in embryology textbooks? "Human development begins at fertilization, the process ... [snip!] ... that the fetus has life and abortion brings about fetal death... The value of the life is debatable, obviously, but it is life."


Also, clearly abortion causes fetal death. I don't know how that's debateable.

Fat-and-Happy TTC since Mar 2008; 1 child; Texas 13915 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Pillowpants is DoingUrMom:" Sure, but there is a difference between Life and "life" Bacteria is alive. "


Bacteria is alive but it will never be born as a human. :) It will always be a bacteria.

Jasify Due September 2; 2 kids; South Carolina 31243 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Not really. A sperm does not carry the genetic material for a complete person. The lifespan of a sperm ... [snip!] ... is life is present, regardless of whether people think it should be terminated or not (which is up to the bearer of that life)."


What can either do at one point in time that makes one "more alive" than the other? They are both completely reliant of a perfect environment for them to "live." They can absolutely not adapt to any other surroundings, which, the ability to adapt to one's environment is one of the many traits of life. Even bacteria adapt.

Fat-and-Happy TTC since Mar 2008; 1 child; Texas 13915 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting mama BAWSE!:" Also, clearly abortion causes fetal death. I don't know how that's debateable."


Well, some people still claim that it isn't alive, therefore how could it die? I believe to be a form of denial that is getting harder and harder to hold on to... seeing as technology furthers our understanding of the human body and fetal development. :)



I was just thinking about what Naomi Wolf said:



"Clinging to a rhetoric about abortion in which there is no life and no death, we entangle our beliefs in a series of self-delusions, fibs and evasions. And we risk becoming precisely what our critics charge us with being: callous, selfish and casually destructive men and women who share a cheapened view of human life...we need to contextualize the fight to defend abortion rights within a moral framework that admits that the death of a fetus is a real death."

user banned 1 child; , 52185 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Well, some people still claim that it isn't alive, therefore how could it die? I believe to be a form ... [snip!] ... the fight to defend abortion rights within a moral framework that admits that the death of a fetus is a real death.""


I think it's a form of life, but not life as we are. Yes, the fetus dies. There is no debate about that. But it's little more than a parasite during pregnancy. And when my pregnancy was planned, I loved my parasite. I still love my baby girl. But if I had an unplanned pregnancy, I would resent, maybe even hate that fetus

Fat-and-Happy TTC since Mar 2008; 1 child; Texas 13915 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Jasify:" What can either do at one point in time that makes one "more alive" than the other? They are both completely ... [snip!] ... other surroundings, which, the ability to adapt to one's environment is one of the many traits of life. Even bacteria adapt. "


I base my statement on the simple fact that a sperm will never (unless united with the ovum) be born as a human being. A zygote will.



More alive I guess could be defined by the fact that a zygote grows and a sperm does not, a sperm cannot reproduce itself... but rather is a component in the reproductive process... hmmmm... I'm actually going to have think about this because it is a question that I have never been asked... :D Thanks for the mental exercise! lol

Fat-and-Happy TTC since Mar 2008; 1 child; Texas 13915 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting mama BAWSE!:" I think it's a form of life, but not life as we are. Yes, the fetus dies. There is no debate about that. ... [snip!] ... I loved my parasite. I still love my baby girl. But if I had an unplanned pregnancy, I would resent, maybe even hate that fetus"


Which is a perfect example of how perception is everything... it defines the reality of the situation.



The life a fetus is relative to it's bearers perception of it. This it's fate is determined by that perception. Perceptions do not make the fetus any less alive... it just makes them less or more valuable, depending on the circumstance.



I believe that there may be a deeper truth to the matter that we cannot know, so we must act on the matter on the basis of the knowledge that we do possess.

user banned 1 child; , 52185 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Which is a perfect example of how perception is everything... it defines the reality of the situation. ... [snip!] ... deeper truth to the matter that we cannot know, so we must act on the matter on the basis of the knowledge that we do possess."


Right. I don't consider an unwanted fetus (especially at a time when that fetus cannot be born because of the state of the mother / family) very valuable. Especially in contrast with an already born child and a husband, and myself. My obligation is to those before a fetus.

Leisurely Duchess 1 child; Monterey, California 25884 posts
25th Sep '11
Quoting Fat-and-Happy:" Not really. A sperm does not carry the genetic material for a complete person. The lifespan of a sperm ... [snip!] ... is life is present, regardless of whether people think it should be terminated or not (which is up to the bearer of that life)."


It's not directly at you so much, but at the people who say personhood begins at conception, which is the same as assigning personhood to DNA. From there, it's not a stretch to say that a sperm or an egg is half a person.