Double post. Sorry, I've been working all night & am completely drained.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Chroma Hex [+1]:</b>" I should have posted this at a different time. I've always wondered this, even when I was of the faith, ... [snip!] ... about this topic, and all I got back is that "Some questions really just boil down to faith and what is important to you.""</blockquote>
Who knows? I completely believe in God and the Bible, without a doubt, but not every question I have gets answers.
My simple answer to the OP is that God didn't make robots. He made us to have choice. You are basically asking why He didn't just make us robots who can't think for themselves. Being a "free thinker", yourself, would make me think that you would totally get the value of it.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Chroma Hex [+1]:</b>" I don't understand why the answer people go to when they don't have one is faith. It promotes the idea ... [snip!] ... it sound like he orchestrated everything so that people would want to worship him. He sounds like a very self-conscious god. "</blockquote>
Just because people call themselves christian, doesn't mean we now know the answers to anything God related. There are many things that lifelong believers don't understand or know. But trying to understand the very mind of God is futile. God is infinitely wise. I am not. But I trust in HIS WISDOM.
Quoting Chasing Jacy ♥:" Maybe this will help more than any answers I can give you. I'm a believer, but there are still many things ... [snip!] ... this because it gave me a chance to see things from a different perspective. http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html"
That answers everything I wanted from a Christian standpoint, but for some reason I'm still not satisfied... of course it makes sense from a theological point, but the idea that a being who is perfect, omniscient, and more powerful than we could ever fathom needing our direct worship. That just sounds like a jealous, self-conscious god to me.
I understand that the whole point was to give us free will, but why not do that from the beginning? Why not instill in people the knowledge that there is sin and the consequences of turning away from him from the beginning? He knew Adam and Eve would be led astray...why not explain everything to them and leave a life of suffering, and death by old age to the people that turned away from him regardless? I mean, he's still punishing us, and saying that the only way it'll get better is if we serve him. That's not asking for love, although I do know that Christians do adore their god...that is only asking for obedience.
Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Chroma Hex [+1]:</b>" I don't understand why the answer people ... [snip!] ... know. But trying to understand the very mind of God is futile. God is infinitely wise. I am not. But I trust in HIS WISDOM."
I don't think asking questions is ever futile, especially when it comes to understanding the origin of Chrisitianity and where your place in the universe he supposedly created lies. That's as bad as a parent saying "Because I say so!" How do you expect a child to grow and develop if you never explain to them why you're doing the things that you're doing? Most children grow into teens and then into adults, and with age comes reasoning. With that reasoning comes a thirst for knowledge. Those teens/adults aren't going to just blindly follow what their parents teach them without understanding why.
Quoting Jackson 3 + 2:" I think you answered it pretty good with free will being the main point. The only thing I would add ... [snip!] ... wouldn't you rather your kids, family, or friends choose you because they love you and not because you made them to love you?"
I would absolutely want my family and friends to love me because they had reasons to love me and not because I went through whatever means to "make" them love me artificially, but the metaphor between that and
what the Christian god asks of us is different.
Supposedly, we live in a shitty world because of sin. The only way to get something better than this shitty world is to love and worship god.
That is NOT unconditional love. No one can love him unconditionally if the only reason to love him is so that they can achieve something better.
(Of course, I am only approaching this literally. I do understand that there are many, many Christians that love god simply because he's given them a chance at life. I DO believe however, that the mentality stated above is present in most Christians.)
That is like putting my family and friends mentioned above through a difficult situation to test their love for me.
That is never okay. Love with conditions is never okay.
Im not christian (though i use to be) so I guess I cannot answer that specific question. However, We are all mothers. We all PLAN to have to children (for the most part :D) and yet we know that they will suffer in this world. There is no way around it. Loves ones die, virginites are taken, people are mean. Even if no one ever did anything bad, babies teeth and it's painful.
So, does that make me an unloving mother? That I as a mother am bringing my children into this world, knowing without a doubt that she will suffer, along with everyone else on this planet?
Quoting eKnuckles:" Im not christian (though i use to be) so I guess I cannot answer that specific question. However, We ... [snip!] ... am bringing my children into this world, knowing without a doubt that she will suffer, along with everyone else on this planet?"
No, because there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent that. It's different. If you had the power to stop it, then I could see that argument. However, that is a VERY good point, it's just not quite in sync with the topic in my mind.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Chasing Jacy ♥:</b>" <blockquote><b>Quoting Jackson 3 + 2:</b>" I think you answered it pretty good with ... [snip!] ... you and not because you made them to love you?"</blockquote> Thank you :) That is a very good way to look at it."</blockquote>
Quoting Chroma Hex [+1]:" I don't think asking questions is ever futile, especially when it comes to understanding the origin ... [snip!] ... for knowledge. Those teens/adults aren't going to just blindly follow what their parents teach them without understanding why. "
I didn't say that right.
I don't think asking questions, in general, is futile, but I fully believe even the most devout Christian will never even come close to understanding the INTENT of God. Unless it's written down and you are told, directly, how could anyone know? That's all I meant. There are people who are satisfied without knowing the answers to questions, maybe even asked for a long, long time. Other's will never be satisfied, seeking answers on a constant basis. I chalk that up to differing personalities and drives.
I think the basis of the OP is to question God's intent and I'm just not sure how anyone could know that, KWIM?
Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:" I didn't say that right. I don't think asking questions, in general, is futile, but I fully believe ... [snip!] ... and drives. I think the basis of the OP is to question God's intent and I'm just not sure how anyone could know that, KWIM?"
I suppose in a way that is what I'm doing, but it's more that if you look at the facts lined up in the row, it presents a logical fallacy. These are things that I thought as a Christian, although I'm an atheist now. I wanted to see if there were any answers anyone could give me besides "You have to count on faith." or the other cliche (for lack of a better word, it doesn't make them any less valid) reasons.
I do appreciate everyone's answers, and for giving me the benefit of the doubt in answering them despite my lack of faith.
im not a christian but this is what i believe. why children are born sick. why a child lives for 2 hours then passes. this is how i make sense of it. Basically b4 we are born our souls pick our lives. there are lessons that our soul must learn. everything happens for a purpose. suffering makes us understand. we must learn eternal love. you commit suicide or dont learn what you are supposed to you come back again and again. that is my definition of hell. no fire and brimstone. its all about the souls journey. "god" is in all of us and so is the devil. to me god is energy. we are all connected to each other through light. the devil is darkness or humans fallacy.
It confuses me that if you can label yourself Christian then why don't all Christians have the same view point? I can never get answers to things I ask because every Christian has a different opinion... This helps me know that science is right.
Quoting Chroma Hex [+1]:" I don't understand why the answer people go to when they don't have one is faith. It promotes the idea ... [snip!] ... it sound like he orchestrated everything so that people would want to worship him. He sounds like a very self-conscious god. "
pathologically obsessed with getting adoration from his creation.
that's what i get from the OT.
Look, I've struggled with this question "how could God allow this to happen" especially in the field I am working in. But the sin that people do, the horrible things that people do, murders, molesters, it's not of God's plan. That's evil in people's hearts. That's why I no longer have hope for humanity. However, we don't have answers to everything, and won't know everything until our judgement day. We can't rely on our own understanding, but on God's. He is a loving but just God. The evil that happens isn't because of him. It's because our sin we suffer. That's the penalty of the original sin. We must suffer the consequence of our actions.
God gave us free will...it's our choice to choose him or not. If He MADE us love him, it wouldn't be unconditional, real, genuine love.