Reply
No cry sleep solution VS CIO. talexys 1 child; Ontario 1138 posts
3rd Apr '13

I am actually wondering when and if your baby will ever self sooth to sleep if you always rock your baby to sleep. (Or whatever other method you use to avoid crying, mine is a bottle and rocking) Iv been rocking mine to sleep with a bottle and she is 1, and wakes up about 4 times a night needing me to rock her back to sleep. I rock her anywhere from 3-4 hrs every night.
I don't practice CIO, and everyone tells me she is always going to rely on me to get her to sleep if I don't let her CIO a bit and I'm starting to wonder if they're right...I am exhausted and I'm just not sure what to do..
Please no rude comments, I'm genuinely wondering peoples techniques and opinions on the matter.
TIA

Rebecca(Adam'sMommy) 1 child; Beaufort, South Carolina 3251 posts
3rd Apr '13

My son is younger than that.. But I was the same way.. He would wake up like every 3 or 4 hours wanting a boob and a rocking.. Around 6 or 7 months I finally had enough. I needed a good nights sleep. So I let him CIO for a few nights.. (not for long at a time, since most people think CIO means let your child scream bloody murder for hours.) and now he sleeps from 9 or 10 at night until 6 or 7 every morning. He's going on 9 months now.

SavageDarling 3 kids; Webster, Massachusetts 10381 posts
3rd Apr '13

I swear by cosleeping. I would not have made it through my daughter's first year trying to keep her in her crib after every waking.

talexys 1 child; Ontario 1138 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting SavageDarling:" I swear by cosleeping. I would not have made it through my daughter's first year trying to keep her in her crib after every waking."


That's another thing, I co-slept with her a lot. And then people are always saying she will never sleep in her own bed. So I've been staying strong on keeping her in her bed, yes it's been less sleep but I personally would like for her to sleep in her own bed.

talexys 1 child; Ontario 1138 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting Rebecca(Adam'sMommy):" My son is younger than that.. But I was the same way.. He would wake up like every 3 or 4 hours wanting ... [snip!] ... bloody murder for hours.) and now he sleeps from 9 or 10 at night until 6 or 7 every morning. He's going on 9 months now."

Wow that's a big change. My daughter get's so over tired to the point where she will just be whining in my arms rubbing her eyes, squirming and fighting sleep because she's over tired, and I think if I let her cry 5 minutes she will know she needs to just close her eyes and go to sleep. I honestly don't know but I'm strongly considering trying it:S..I have been all against it and I'm just not finding my method is doing either of us any good. And sometimes I rock her 45 minutes, and as soon as I go to stand up she wakes up pissed that I woke her. Then I'm back in the chair for half hour. Its just exhausting.

Meli ❤ 1 child; Don't worry about it, CA, United States 30999 posts
status 3rd Apr '13

Lately my daughter falls asleep on the boob or from a car ride & doesn't even wake up once to bf. I think her not having her 2nd nap (sometimes she takes a short nap in the car) and going to bed when she usually does helps A LOT. She does get a little crabby by the end of the day but it isn't bad at all and it beats waking up 3 to 4 times a night and she sleeps a lot deeper so I can clean and not wake her up.

* MRS KING * 2 kids; Whitesboro, Oklahoma 1550 posts
3rd Apr '13

My daughter has always slept through the night, but at first i rocked her to sleep then changed to giving her a sleepy bottle, now she cosleeps with us, but when we want a night to ourselves, she goes in her crib no problem. I swear shell sleep anywhere, shes fallen asleep in the buggy seat once.

usernametx Texas 19750 posts
3rd Apr '13

I tend to go with whatever my child is showing me that they NEED and what is biologically normal. That would be to sleep beside their mom and to wake during the night. Nightwaking is for nutrition, sensory and hormonal regulation and is a protective mechanism against SIDS. Is it easy? No. Is it healthy? Yes. Is it normal? Yes.



Research is very clear in showing why babies wake during the night. They wake for growth spurts, when they're hitting milestones (rolling, crawling, sitting, pulling up, walking and talking). They wake when they've been exposed to illness and when they're sick. They wake when they're going through cognitive spurts and any changes in routines, and when teething etc. There are so many valid reasons for night waking during the first few years. That's not even considering their emotional development and sensory development that can cause difficulty with sleeping and especially when alone.



We know that being left to cry causing an increase of stress hormones in their brain. We know that infants who are left to cry are not getting their needs met. We know that kids who are left to cry loose and do not develop the synapses in their brains for self regulation as they get older. There is no such thing as self soothing, this was a term invented by adults for not having to care for their children. What does exist is self regulation, and a baby is born with only 25% of it's adult brain and does not yet have the capacity to do this. Leaving them to cry and ignoring their needs is detrimental to the development of self regulation - they learn to self regulate through other people caring for them and showing them what it is like to feel regulated. Leaving them to cry just teaches them no one will help so give up asking, it doesn't meet their need.



We know that kids who've been left to cry will continue to release stress hormones in future even though they are no longer outwardly crying. So their heartrate still increases and the hormones still flood, even though you can no longer see them cry :( The way in which you respond to your baby sets their parameters for arousal, so if they are left to CIO they will have this horrible parameter set. These stress hormones are what indicate digestive issues and mental illness such as anxiety and depression later in life.



You can consider the social skills and emotional intelligence that will develop (or not) through not being responded to as well.



For anecdotal evidence, my son breastfed every hour at night and slept in my arms as a baby. Since he has positive associations of bedtime it's something he can look forward to. He's never had to dread it. He knows i will never ignore his distress and so he trusts himself and he trusts me. He's not clingy at all because his needs have always been met, so he's developed the secure foundation from which to confidently participate in life. I didn't listen to fearful people who told me my baby would never walk because i wore or carried him all the time, good job too because it meant he was secure and happy and walking by 11 months. I'm so glad now that i continued to listen to him and respond with love and compassion, seeing him being so loving and compassionate himself i would feel dreadful if i disrespected or betrayed him by ignoring his cries for my own comfort. I'm a parent 24/7 not just when it suits me. If i'm tired then i get a babysitter or nap whenever i can. I adjust my life to ensure that my needs are met so that i can continue to meet his. If you're desperately tired and it's making you think of CIO so you can sleep, try eating better and taking supplements, socializing with supportive mommy friends, getting fresh air and exercise, taking quiet time for yourself when you can etc.

usernametx Texas 19750 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting talexys:" Wow that's a big change. My daughter get's so over tired to the point where she will just be whining ... [snip!] ... as soon as I go to stand up she wakes up pissed that I woke her. Then I'm back in the chair for half hour. Its just exhausting."


What's her nap routine like? things that could help - wearing her in a wrap or carrier, bouncing her on a birthing ball so it's easier, watching her closely for a while and adjusting the time you start to help her fall to sleep. It also takes about 20 minutes for them to get into deep sleep, so if you can lay down with her sleeping in bed, roll over on to your side so she's sleeping beside you.. then wait and leave the bed once she's in deep sleep. With my son i could always sense deep sleep, his breathing would be different and you can just 'feel' when they're ready for you to walk away and when it would disturb them.



She could be about to hit a growth spurt or milestone, i didn't see how old she is.

Rebecca(Adam'sMommy) 1 child; Beaufort, South Carolina 3251 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting Mama*AtoZ:" I tend to go with whatever my child is showing me that they NEED and what is biologically normal. That ... [snip!] ... socializing with supportive mommy friends, getting fresh air and exercise, taking quiet time for yourself when you can etc."


CIO does NOT mean let them cry for long periods of time. I let my son cry for 10 minutes tops at a time, go reassure him that I am there and I didn't leave. Because that's what it is. Separation anxiety., They think you have left them when you are only in the other room.



I agree that leaving them for hours will do all of these things, but letting them figure out on their own that they can and WILL survive without being attached to mommy's hip 24/7 is healthy for them. It builds independence.

talexys 1 child; Ontario 1138 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting Mama*AtoZ:" What's her nap routine like? things that could help - wearing her in a wrap or carrier, bouncing her ... [snip!] ... walk away and when it would disturb them. She could be about to hit a growth spurt or milestone, i didn't see how old she is."


Thanks for the info..she is going to be 1 in 2 weeks. She naps from about 1-3 in the afternoon. I recently have gotten her on a scedual to try and avoid over tiredness by bath at 7:30-8 (first sign of being tired) and then get into pjs, read a book and rock to sleep with her bottle (before I would just let her come out and play and she would always get very over tired and hard to get to sleep, going to bed around 11:30-1am every night) I slowly transformed her into her own bed, at first I would always lay beside her in my bed until she was asleep and then move her, then rock her when she woke up. But since I changed that it has just been rocking then into her own bed which works pretty well at bed time...usually as sleep by 9-9:30. When she wakes up at night I again rock her with a bottle, it`s just more frequent as she wasn`t waking up as much when she was in my bed, and sometimes harder to move her into her own bed. I can also tell when shes in a deep sleep, sometimes in the middle of the night I may try and lay her down before shes in a deep enough sleep because im exhausted and im hopeing she will just stay asleep (my bad) But I usually just end up keeping my self awake longer lol. I know if I slept her in my bed, she wouldn`t wake up as much, she was more used to it. And that would be convenient for more sleep for myself, however I would like to get her used to her own room which is why I would rather get up at night and rock her back to sleep...



With the information you gave me I will probably continue to do what I`m doing....it is just everyone telling me what Im doing is wrong and Im going to be rocking her till she`s 10. I realize shes still a baby and it`ll take time , but yes it is just exashting some nights but that comes with parenting.

usernametx Texas 19750 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting Rebecca(Adam'sMommy):" CIO does NOT mean let them cry for long periods of time. I let my son cry for 10 minutes tops at a ... [snip!] ... own that they can and WILL survive without being attached to mommy's hip 24/7 is healthy for them. It builds independence. "


CC - controlled crying and CIO - cry it out are different. Some people do leave their babies to cry for an hour or more thinking that's what they have to do. The point is, crying is normal, infant sleep patterns are different than adult ones, it isn't easy and it isn't meant to be - you don't have to stop anything or force sleeping through. It's something they grow out of, not something you need to stop. There are other ways of maintaining your own health so that you can be the best parent you can be for their optimum health.



All humans are interdependent - and that is adults with fully matured brains. You cannot force independence. It's healthier to develop secure trust and dependency which naturally leads to interdepency. Children who don't have secure dependency are classed as insecurely or avoidably attached and so called independence is withdrawl and lack of trust in others. Babies are indeed wired in a way that they tend to want to be with their main caregiver most the time, that's called normal human development. Then as they become more able to do more for themselves they feel secure and happily do this. Pushing them away is neither necessary or positive. It's usually ignorance or fear on the parents part because they do nut understand or trust in a child's ability to naturally develop without being forced to do things.



We got over this myth of forced independence (and behaviourism) in the 1960's if you take a look at the research and neuroscience available from that time :)

Rebecca(Adam'sMommy) 1 child; Beaufort, South Carolina 3251 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting Mama*AtoZ:" CC - controlled crying and CIO - cry it out are different. Some people do leave their babies to cry ... [snip!] ... independence (and behaviourism) in the 1960's if you take a look at the research and neuroscience available from that time :)"


Well, I'd rather let me son cry for ten minutes for a few nights so I can get a decent nights sleep to be able to care and provide for him the next day. That does not make me ignorant or fearful. That makes me his mom. I believe that I can and WILL teach him independence as early as now..



I've noticed that he has gotten in this habit of crying every time I put him in his high chair or set him down. Causing me to pick him up instantaneously to prevent crying. That's ridiculous to me. I should be able to set him down and give him toys or something and him play for a few minutes so I can do what I need to do.



So what did I do? I let him cry for a few minutes. Then I pick him up and he stops as soon as I do. I let him cry for a little longer each time, meanwhile standing there reassuring him that he is okay. Now I can set him down for 30+ minutes and he plays like a sweet boy unless something is bothering him. (diaper, hungry, etc)



It does NOT hurt a baby to cry. It's good for them.

usernametx Texas 19750 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting talexys:" Thanks for the info..she is going to be 1 in 2 weeks. She naps from about 1-3 in the afternoon. I recently ... [snip!] ... 10. I realize shes still a baby and it`ll take time , but yes it is just exashting some nights but that comes with parenting."


Maybe try and start bedtime just 10 mins earlier and see if it avoids the over tired stuff?



12-15 months is a really common time for sleep issues because they are learning to walk and having big cognitive growth spurts around that time. Their brains and nerves and muscles are all working like crazy and suddenly they are so much more aware of themselves and their environment and their place within it.



I always found when i thought i was getting to breaking point it suddenly got easier, thankgod lol. Maintaining your health and treating yourself during the day can give you the strength (physical and emotional) to deal with night time parenting better. It won't be like this forever. It helps me to always think of the reasons behind difficult behaviours and consider how i will feel when i look back at my parenting - would i most regret being compassionate and cuddling my young child and being tired, or leaving them to cry?



These are worth reading
http://www.naturalchild.org/james_mckenna/

usernametx Texas 19750 posts
3rd Apr '13
Quoting Rebecca(Adam'sMommy):" Well, I'd rather let me son cry for ten minutes for a few nights so I can get a decent nights sleep ... [snip!] ... a sweet boy unless something is bothering him. (diaper, hungry, etc) It does NOT hurt a baby to cry. It's good for them. "


We have a fundamental difference in the view of children. I don't believe a child doing what is easy for me or what i want is what makes them sweet. I do however value my child being able to express themselves openly knowing they will get a compassionate response. I would be very sad to use such tactics on my child, child rearing is not puppy training. Such techniques would not only feel ridiculous to me but a betrayal of our respectful and trusting relationship. I'd also rather prioritize my child and my relationship with them confidently in the knowledge they would outgrow the need to be held so quickly anyway, so i wouldn't waste time and effort on 'training' against a natural stage of development. It is reassuring that research heavily backs my instincts.



Stopping crying in the highchair could be a great example of what i described of continued stress responses after needs habitually being ignored. Personally i'd much rather just put my child in a wrap and get on with my work, or enjoy them playing for all of the few weeks it would be until they wanted to play with less input anyway. But then with older kids around i can look back on those ages and appreciate how special they were. Thank you for sharing though, it makes me feel glad for the way i responded/parented.



Taking a family based approach means that i can have realistic expectations and acknowledge that a very young child does not have the cognitive nor emotional maturity that i do - so i am able to weigh up and prioritize who needs what. I put my child's emotional needs over my whims and wants and consider the bigger picture and the effect of my parental interactions on my child's short and long term development.



You didn't specify when it is good for a baby to cry alone. Most adults would like to be shown compassion and comfort when they cry. Being told our cries are not important makes most people feel worthless, belittled, alone, misunderstood, confused or ashamed even. It's called invalidation. Those are not positive feelings and definitely not something i would want to push on a person just learning about who they are and their place in the world. Sometimes babies do just need to cry to release tension and stress, occasionally people like to cry alone (although the reason for this can be argued that it's because they were left to cry alone as babies and never learnt to accept their emotions and share them with others, so now they are stuck as adults uncomfortable with expressing their own feelings and getting support). So whilst crying can be important and normal for babies (and anyone) it is not usually positive when it is someone they depend on that is deliberately making them cry, and leaving them alone to do it. Therapeutic crying is usually done with support.