Quoting Mara:" except that it doesn't explain how someone can be their own father. it sounds nice-n-tidy, but it's ... [snip!] ... holy spirit, they do NOT change states and become (say) the holy spirit when they used to be god. so much for that analogy. "
Quoting eKnuckles:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Mara:</b>" wow, what made you convert? i find it fascinating ... [snip!] ... things for themselves or believe its all fable stories. I mean these are all the things that led up to me becoming Muslim."
ah, you're a natural purist, then. islam is very single-minded about itself, that's for sure. not nearly as much sway room is given as in other faiths.
the clothing discussion is very interesting to me... i think there's some freedom in not having to think about what you're going to wear and that the current culture of obsession w/ sex and youth in america can make it pretty intense to figure out what actually matters in life for young women, but hopefully girls have mothers who're willing to guide them through the sea of shit to a meaningful and healthy relationship w/ their body and appearance.
it's definitely not freeing/liberating to be obsessed w/ your looks, but that's not necessarily what muslims are trying to do when they cover a woman, is it?
it's more about protecting the women from men and leaving the men unburdened w/ "the temptations of the flesh" that they "suffer" from when seeing a woman's body. i don't see how women benefit in that sense, as it's mostly about catering to a perceived sexual predator-instinct in men, rather than expecting men to behave honorably regardless of what a woman wears.
*shrugs* i don't see covering up to protect men's eyes from our flesh as empowering any more than i see getting naked for money from the self-same men as empowering. two sides, same coin. the coin of men-as-predators and women as sex objects.
it sells the entire human race short.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Mara:</b>" ah, you're a natural purist, then. islam is very single-minded about itself, that's for sure. not nearly ... [snip!] ... two sides, same coin. the coin of men-as-predators and women as sex objects. it sells the entire human race short."</blockquote>
What? Of course that's what it's all about. It's about the fact that my beauty is mine, and no stranger on the street has the right to even look at it. Who are they to me? It's about preventing the culture of anorexia, clothing obsessed, judge-me-by-my-beauty.
It is about helping our brothers in Islaam, but that's actually such a small part of it. Men are taught to avert their gaze from a woman who is not their wife out of respect. Men are supposed to wear loose clothing (for example, the thobe=dress) and wear beards.
I've been on both sides, and let me tell you. The non-muslim men guve respect a hundred times more than when I didn't wear hijab. I'm spoken to as ma'am and doors are held open for me.
I find it interesting that muslim women are oppressed (sarcasm) but nuns are devoted.
I am mocked by a lot of christians for what I wear, yet I dress like Mary alayhasalaam Mother of jesus alayhisalaam.
Eta: when a woman is walking around in skimpy clothing, they are catering to every man, giving them everything they want. The men do not do this. So who is benefiting here? This culture has been set up for men, not for women.
Quoting eKnuckles:" <blockquote><b>Quoting Mara:</b>" ah, you're a natural purist, then. islam is very ... [snip!] ... everything they want. The men do not do this. So who is benefiting here? This culture has been set up for men, not for women."
your beauty is yours... indeed, and that includes to share. no one should be telling you where it's allowed to be seen except you.
i mean, are you really trying to tell me that this practice which has been around for thousands of years was an anti-anorexia measure back then?
no, you're adapting what it means b/c it's a way to justify an edict on women about how they dress as designated by a religious faith. at least men are expected to also dress modestly, so there is balance in the concealment.
for myself, i don't see you as oppressed b/c you choose to dress like this, i see the religion as oppressive b/c it creates an unnatural barrier and infers that there is indeed something to hide, and in hiding to control / protect.
which puts us back at the same issue as before.
if you were truly free in your religion, you wouldn't feel that your body needs to be portrayed one way or another (or in this case, not seen at all), b/c you'd be defining that for yourself rather than relying on your faith to designate what is appropriate about your body and to whom you should reveal it.
and of course you'll get more respect w/ a hijab... you're mysterious and not playing into the script of female-as-object.
there's no wonder you're all for it, either...
it must be empowering to deny the oh-so western sexualization script and instead opt for bodily privacy and a sense of personal control over who gets to sexualize you... (even if it's only for your religion). such an experience would be a huge eye-opener for someone who's lived as a "normally dressed' western woman and then converted to islam.
again, YOU aren't necessarily oppressed for dressing this way, but the reasons that this religiously defined clothing exists IS inherently oppressive b/c it makes several assumptions about humanity, females and males - all of which are negative: whether it's that you should be hiding your beauty from the public or helping your brothers not think about sex inappropriately, there isn't really a natural or positive reason to be covered to the degree your religion dictates.
i mean, you can try to make a modern feminist argument for it (b/c there certainly is one to be made given the state of our current culture), but they fall short when you remember that your face = your identity and muslim men don't have to hide their faces (beards give you a new "hairy" face, but don't hide you like you're doing).
a bevy of women hijabed up to their noses become indistinguishable from one another - one woman is as like another as can be, minus the scant details of height and heaviness that might be deducted if you look closely.
de-individualizing a woman is about as "unfreeing" and "unempowering" as it gets.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Mara:</b>" your beauty is yours... indeed, and that includes to share. no one should be telling you where it's ... [snip!] ... might be deducted if you look closely. de-individualizing a woman is about as "unfreeing" and "unempowering" as it gets. "</blockquote>
I do it because it's commanded of me, definetly. From the one who made all of us. And it definetly is supposed to be a preventative for all harm that making a woman's body an object for all and everyone has caused. That is nothing new lol.
No one can deny that women are much more enticing when out in public than men. If this wasn't true, it wouldn't be a woman that sells every product in america and elsewhere.
Our clothes do hide us, that's the point. Like I said, it's no ones right to look at me, especially some guy on the street who can get his jollies off and have no commitment to me at all.
When I walk down the street, I'm not invisible, trust me lol. And in countries where women cover like me (though very few) they are as invisible as you are walking around with other women. You all look the same too, but in a different way.
As for being free in religion, it depends on what your talking about. I am following the truth, so of course it's freedom. It goes so much more beyond the clothing. But that is what stands out and so that is what is harped on by the media.
Have you ever spent time with a group of niqaabis before?
When we die is when we become alive. This life is what death is and makes us very limited versions of ourselves but is a necessary part of our spiritual journey. Once we drop the body and let go of any attachments here we becomes what we always were but have fogotten. I believe we are sparks of God and we also reincarnate.
I don't believe in "heaven and hell". I don't think God is angry and waiting to judge us and send us to an eternity in hell fire or anything like that. I think the soul judges itself. I think "hell" is being separate from God and is basically self imposed. I also believe we reincarnate.